CX Diaries - with Keith Gait
CX Diaries with Keith Gait is my podcast where I talk to the people at the sharp end of CX and Contact Centres. The Movers and the shakers, the innovators, the disruptors, and the people delivering in the real world who share their personal stories of their journey through our industry
CX Diaries - with Keith Gait
Lucie Child on Transforming Customer Care and Inclusion
Immerse yourself in an enlightening discussion with Lucie Child, Strategy Lead for Customer Care at The Very Group, as we explore the complexities of customer experience in our rapidly changing world.
This episode dives into the heart of CX, highlighting the challenges that organisations face, from recruitment woes to the pressing issues surrounding customer vulnerability amidst a cost of living crisis.
Lucie shares her insights and strategies from her extensive career journey, revealing how her experiences have shaped her approach to improving customer care.
Throughout our conversation, Lucie passionately discusses the pivotal role of workplace inclusion and equity in enhancing CX. She highlights the success of her colleague-led networks, which aim to foster a more supportive environment for everyone. Engaging stories from her personal journey - transitioning from an archaeology degree to a career in customer insight - remind us that our diverse backgrounds can offer unique perspectives and strengths in any profession.
Lucie also reveals her commitment to community well-being, sharing her latest projects like mindfulness colouring books and her participation in the challenging Coniston Challenge for charity. This episode is packed with valuable insights, practical advice, and inspiration, making it essential listening for anyone involved in or curious about the world of customer experience.
Be sure to check out the YouTube page for the Video version
https://www.youtube.com/@CustomerExperienceFoundation24
Welcome to CX Diaries. Cx Diaries from the Customer Experience Foundation is our podcast where we talk to people at the sharp end of CX and contact centres, the movers and the shakers, the innovators, the disruptors and the people delivering in the real world who share their personal stories of their journey through our industry. This week, for Series 2, I'm delighted to be joined by Lucy Child. Lucy is the Strategy Lead for Customer Care at the Very Group, an online retailer that combines amazing brands and products with flexible payment options.
Speaker 1:Lucy has a wide range of experience across public and private sector organisations, encompassing consumer insight, marketing and customer experience roles. In her current role, she is responsible for ensuring the team is set up for success to deliver the strategic vision. Lucy is also a passionate advocate for equity and inclusion in the workplace. She is founder of the colleague-led network Women at the Berry Group. Outside of the day job, she has started her own range of hand-drawn mindfulness colouring books and is hoping to add more titles to the collection soon and is preparing to take on the Coniston Challenge for Alderhey very soon. Lucy, welcome, it's a pleasure to have you with us today.
Speaker 2:Hi Keith, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:So the Very Group, that's quite an interesting organisation. Tell us about the role there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure. So my role at the moment at the very group I've had a couple. So my current role I'll talk about first is strategy lead for the contact centre, so for our customer care operation, and that means supporting the leadership team there to really create and execute the strategy for the contact centre. So that's how we're set up to deliver for our customers, how to get great outcomes for them, where we are in the world from an estate point of view, how we work with our outsource partner, all of those things, and I'm kind of also taking on things like comms and engagement at the moment as well. So it's a really wide ranging role. There's a never at all moment moment yes, I'm out of breath just listening to that.
Speaker 1:Um, what are some of the key challenges and some of the core customer areas that you've got?
Speaker 2:I think the current challenges I know from speaking to lots of people across the industry we're not alone. We're facing really similar challenges. So I think things like recruitment um are challenging in this market at the moment. So, you know, working really hard on what our employee value proposition is and trying to talk about why Bury's a great place to work to attract people, I think as well, well-being, looking after people at the moment is more important than ever. We've done a lot in that space, but I think there's always more that everyone can do to support that um.
Speaker 2:I think cost of living is a big challenge as well um, not just for our customers. So I think we you know, we, we, um we primarily do serve families on a budget. That's our core target audience. So we're supporting people who are struggling with cost of living um. Yet a lot of our colleagues um are facing challenges with the cost of living as well. So it's sort of supporting both of those of those people, of those types of people, through through the challenges that we're experiencing um. And I think the other challenge that I'm particularly wrestling with at the moment is is getting to grips with with ai and everything that that means. So what does that mean for our future? What does that mean for our colleagues as well? How can we make the best use of it to serve our customers, but also to make sure that we have some brilliant roles in the future as well in the team?
Speaker 1:So let's break that out a little bit. Let's look at the payment options, the cost of living issue first. You're quite well known for a range of payment options supporting your customers. How's that working in the current climate? Is that something you're going to have to adapt and look at even more closely?
Speaker 2:I think it's stood the test of time. So it's a really, it's a real heritage brand. You know Littlewoods we have three brands at Bury we have Littlewoods and we have Little very, we have little woods and we have little woods island sorry, little woods island, which is now very ie um, and that you know stood the test of time. It's always been there in that, in that, for some guys or other, little woods is over 100 years old. So I think it's you know it's it's not a new concept.
Speaker 2:Um, I think what's new is just continually finding ways to support customers and I think as well, identify vulnerabilities as well and understand how we can support customers with vulnerabilities. So, not making changes to the proposition as such, because we have either you can pay straight away, or you can pay I'll take three which is spread over three, three months or or by now, pay later. So keeping those models going, but just making sure that customers are really well informed about um the options and and choosing the right one for them and then and supporting them, them through that and, given the demographic that you traditionally serve, do you feel that as a business, you have a higher proportion of vulnerable customers now compared to most, yeah, but potentially I'm not sure how, how, the, how it compares and we've done a big project recently within within the customer care and right across the business actually to better identify vulnerability.
Speaker 2:We've always had a. We kind of won awards way back as far as I think it's 2005 for our vulnerable strategy. It's always been something that's really important to us. But I think what we're doing now is is identifying right across the spectrum of vulnerability, not just the really you know what's been classed, I guess, traditionally as vulnerability, but really thinking more broadly about what vulnerability means. And, um, we're doing things like developing special care flags so that we can flag a customer's account if they give us permission to, and that we can. Then, you know, they don't have to explain every time they speak to us what their vulnerability might be. We can offer them proactively, offer them options that suit that vulnerability there and then. So, yeah, I think we are, we're doing a lot in that space and we're really kind of well connected into the industry as well, and the team that work on that, you know, are often invited to speak about it. So it's something that we're passionate about and we're committed to.
Speaker 1:And looking at your operational delivery, I've been very fortunate to have had a visit around your site. It's a beautiful, beautiful building, a lovely place to work, but you do also outsource quite a visit around your site. It's a beautiful, beautiful um building, a lovely place to work, but you do also outsource quite a lot of your operation. Talk us through the strategy, be up behind that and how that, how that works day to day yeah, sure.
Speaker 2:So, yes, you're absolutely right. We have a fantastic um office. Our headquarters is in liverpool, just um south of the city center, and our main building is an old, old aircraft hangar from the old john lennon or speak airport. It's now called john lennon airport and it's beautiful. It's such a great, great place to work.
Speaker 2:And we actually changed our operating model, like lots of people did through covid. We had our contact centre about 10 miles down the road, um, in a different site called entry or kind of the main contact center um, and through the operating model changes and listening to colleagues who were really enjoying being at home, we knew that when we came back we'd be in some kind of hybrid model, which would mean that we could be more flexible about the space that we used. So we took the decision to to you know, through consultation, to close the entry site and bring the colleagues who are at Aintree in on a one or two day a week basis into speak, which has been absolutely fantastic because that is the, as I say, the head office, symbolic to the, to the business um and as a distance retailer, um we don't have that ability to go into a store and talk to our customers and feel that customer connection. So actually being able to go and, um, you know, being able to invite people in to do call, listening and things like that um is perfect. So, yeah, we have um, we have a contact center there.
Speaker 2:We also have um a contact center about an hour away in Bolton, and there's a few different things that happen out of Bolton, but the majority of it is our is our fraud center of excellence. So that's, you know, helping to protect our customers and our business against fraud. And then the rest of our operation is outsourced. So we outsource in both South Africa and in Scotland, up in Glasgow, and we have our our kind of service operation really in outsourced in offshore, and we have our we have it's mainly social media up in Glasgow. So really utilizing the capability and the specialism of our outsourcer to deliver that social media and elements of complaints up there. So I would say very broadly, our strategy is to have the the more complex customer journeys where there's potentially more pain points for the customer um closer to home, where we can really get under the skin of them and deliver um great outcomes for the customer, and the more straightforward um queries are offshored in South Africa. So I think that's the kind of headline estate strategy Fantastic.
Speaker 1:We've covered quite a lot on CX Diaries about mental wellbeing. We've talked about that a few times, but not too much before about inclusion. Tell us about what you're leading on in that area.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I guess, talking as a business, not any kind of gender networks and I at the time I didn't work in customer care, I worked in more of a data role and it was quite a male-driven environment and just some informal conversations with with some females in the team. We felt like we needed a place to get together and talk about challenges that we were facing, experiences that we'd had, and we kind of got together and decided we should do something, and I completely agreed, but it never felt like the right moment. So there were lots of moments of I really want to do something, but I don't know how to. I want to create this network, but I don't have the capabilities or the skills, I don't have the time. And I had this really wonderful conversation with somebody who said to me I don't know what you're waiting for, because it will never be the right moment, just start. And that was such a powerful conversation because I got back to my desk, I sent a calendar invite to a few people who I knew were thinking similar things to me. We just had a meeting and from there it's grown to, I think, around 300 members now, which is just just brilliant.
Speaker 2:Um, so that's a wave network and then we've had other networks have followed suit from that as well. So we now have um, we have uh rave, which is race at very um. We also have some new networks as well. So so we have a generations network, which I think is really interesting, which is different age groups sharing experiences. We also have a neurodiversity network as well, which is just getting off the ground now, which I think is so interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we also have a mental health network as well, mind. We also have a mental health network as well, mind, and I think it's brilliant because the networks are all you know in and of themselves, but they're massively interconnected as well. So lots of the heads of the chairs of the networks will work really closely together because there's so much interconnectivity and overlap between people who might identify or want to be part of those networks. So I think we're doing a lot, want to be part of those networks. So I think we're doing a lot.
Speaker 2:But I was fortunate to judge in some awards recently for that very category and it blew me away how much other businesses are doing as well, and I think what really sets the people apart who are doing it brilliantly is they have a very clear strategy about what they want to achieve and they give people time to do these things. It's not expected to be done at the side of the desk. You know, they really invest time in it and they put resource behind it, and that's what really drives the results yeah, and what?
Speaker 1:what else do you think we can all learn from that? How should businesses be applying this?
Speaker 2:yeah, I do think. I think if businesses are serious about it, they absolutely need to have sponsorship of it. They need to, you know, really consider how, that, what the strategy is, what they're trying to achieve, uh, how what's important to their colleagues, and listen to, listen to the, the people, um, because you know such an emotive. I was listening to um, listening to a phone and on the radio, actually on the, on the way back from doing the school run this morning and really interesting now, talking about um, the, the pressures that young boys face, and about how you, for so long, because we have had this gender inequity, um, for so long it's, the focus has been on girls and actually now what's happening with younger boys is they don't, you know, they don't see, uh, the opportunities that they have.
Speaker 2:And I thought, gosh, that's so interesting, there's, there's so much, I think, to inclusion, um, and my husband and I having debate about it in the car and saying, well, actually, why do we have to be so nuanced in a lot of this stuff? Why can't we be? You know, that belonging and inclusion piece is so important, isn't it? It's thinking about how can we make sure everybody feels included, no matter what they are. Maybe we need to move away from the sort of siloed approach to inclusion, but it's a big challenge, it's a big question and where?
Speaker 1:where does the line start, stop or get drawn um? So there was a report this morning that an raf recruitment center um were being very heavily criticized for actively discriminating against young white males yeah diversity targets up. What's your, what's your thought on that?
Speaker 2:gosh. Um, yeah, I think. I think targets are really difficult, aren't they? Because I think they can. They can. If they're applied incorrectly, they can drive the wrong. I think, probably what somebody like the rf might need to do is think about what do? What do we need to do to attract more people to apply, rather than filter out the people who reply? Do you see what I mean? I think you need to address that challenge of what, if I want more people to to be, uh, you know, I want a more representative base in my business or my organization or what have you, how do I make it more representative base in my business or my organisation or what have you? How do I make it appealing for those people? Because I bet the challenges that they're having is that people are just put off from applying in the first place.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that comes back to culture, legacy, heritage, behaviours within the organisation.
Speaker 2:There's not lots of secret anymore in 2023. No, 100%. Everything is known, isn't it? Everything's out there. There's social media, glassdoor, everything. You cannot hide any poor practices, and I heard a brilliant quote the other day which is about culture is the worst behaviour that you're willing to tolerate, and that's really stuck with me. Actually, I keep thinking about that all the time. And the behaviour that happens when no one's watching as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, ok, so tell us about your journey through the industry and how you got to where you are today. You haven't always been in retail, have you?
Speaker 2:No, well, I've kind of a little bit come full circle in retail and I've also, I feel like a big imposter in this industry because, like, unlike most people, I didn't start on the phones and I think most people did um. So actually I have got an archaeology degree, which is very random. Um, I was I've always been, as a child, obsessed with um. Um, you know the classic kind of classic stories and myths and legends, and um, when I had the opportunity to go to university, I thought I'm not going to do something boring in my mind, I'm going to do something really cool. So I did archaeology without much um thought about what I might do in the future. Um, I kind of learned through that that I didn't really enjoy sitting in trenches in the rain digging um.
Speaker 2:So when I came out of university, I looked, did look, for a for what deemed at the time a proper job, and I got a job as a on a graduate scheme for a large market research agency and it was actually multinational I think there were 50 odd countries um, and I have to say it was fascinating because it was all about understanding people and you know, I really loved that. I stayed there for a good few years and I worked on some really cool projects. I was working in the technology team at the time, so I was talking about mobile phones. I was doing, you know, e-commerce was really in its infancy at that time, so I was doing things like watching how people navigated through websites and then making recommendations to brands about how they might improve their website. So I stayed there for a few years. I had a very brief stint in Sainsbury's as well.
Speaker 2:So when I say I kind of come full circle back to retail, but then I went off, I thought, well, actually, do you know what? I love this sort of stuff? I love understanding people and I love understanding how you need to communicate with people and how you can try to understand behavior for the purposes of business, for the, for the, you know, for the purposes of business, um, and I looked for a role that might bring some of that together, but with some of the stuff I loved, like that. You know the archaeological side of stuff. And I remember talking to a recruiter about that dream job and him saying I don't really, I don't really know what you're talking about, I'm not really sure what that exists, and then two days later he phoned me up, he went I don't know how you've manifested this, but I've just found you a job and it was um. It was for customer insight manager for English Heritage and that was just my dream job and I was so long time you were there a long time.
Speaker 2:I was. I was there for about 12 years in the end, which I suppose is testament to the fact that it was a brilliant place to work. There was never a dull moment and I've had some amazing experiences. I did presentations in castles and, you know, meetings in the, in the cellars of of historic homes, and I went to the summer solstice a lot, a few times, actually interviewed people at the summer solstice because we wanted to understand the profile of visitors to the solstice, to be able to put you know, to make the event run smoothly, because you've got this huge volume of people descending on a fairly small, you know, and at the time it was before they'd moved the road away from the stones and everything. So it was trying to understand how do we make this the best, safest, most inclusive event, uh, to people? So had a fantastic time, um, but a few things happened.
Speaker 2:Um, I sort of became, you know, I suppose, as you do when you stay somewhere a long time, you get into a little bit of groundhog day. You know, I suppose, as you do when you stay somewhere a long time, you get into a little bit of groundhog day. You know, a year turns into the next and the cycle is a little bit the same. So I was a bit curious as to what was out there and and it coincided with a move as well moved back to my hometown to be near my mum and dad with my two young kids, and I'd heard lots of good things about Verry. I had a couple of friends who worked there and I'd heard it was a great place, um, if you wanted to, to try some different jobs, you wanted to move around. They really encouraged you to do something um different and develop your skills, and I was really attracted to that as an idea, having probably having stayed in the same place for 12 years um, so well, yeah, started at very and I started again doing customer insight.
Speaker 2:So what I've been doing for english heritage, but in a very, very different context um, and what's interesting about very is we have such a lot of data available about our customers, um, so we're hugely data rich and we've got some incredibly talented people who know how to use that data to understand patterns and behaviors and forecast things. But what, what, where? The kind of gap was, and the role I was doing was the more of the behavioral and attitudinal side of that, because data can obviously only tell you so much and and I I loved that. I had a really good few years and doing that and working on um, all sorts of things um. But then I did get that opportunity that I'd heard about.
Speaker 2:I was asked to join a project to improve our MPS um. It was a special project and we all kind of got a war room and we had some brilliant techniques that we used um, and it was during that project I first really became aware of and linked into the customer care operation and honestly I was like I need to, I need to work for this team. They're so can do so passionate about the customer, wanting to do the right thing for the customer, wanting to solve the problems. And, honestly, I was hooked and I kept thinking how can I work for this team? I don't have any operational experience, I don't. I don't know how to do any of this stuff, um. And then again, you know, a lucky, a lucky break I guess it came in that I got invited to go and do some training with our outsource operation over in South Africa. Honestly, I was so, so fortunate, um like to spend two weeks over there and I got to train the work I'd been doing on understanding the customer, understanding their attitudes and their motivations and their behavior, and that just cemented my desire to work in customer care.
Speaker 2:And and you know, absolute serendipity that the strategy lead job came up. And at first you know, massive imposter syndrome. Well, I've never worked in operations, I've never worked in strategy, but I chatted to the chap who's now my boss and we, we massively hit it off, um, and you know he said to me you know, it's about your attitude, it's about what you know how, how you do things, not kind of what you've done, um, and the rest is history. I've been here for over three years now and I am delighted I really am. I've met so many wonderful people in across this brilliant industry. Um that I'm I finally think I found where I I was meant to be oh, that's so lovely to hear.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for sharing that. Um what? What are you most proud of? What's the biggest achievement?
Speaker 2:um, I think recently, uh, we, we've won an award for our well-being strategy um and I think that's.
Speaker 2:You know that's so important, you know, for looking after our colleagues, we, we did um a program of work with with dr greg wells, um, all about um. You know how making really small changes can all add up and contribute to your well-being, and not just your physical well-being, your mental well-being, because I'm a really big champion as well of mental well-being and how looking after that is so important. So I think you know recently, I think it's been that I think taking a step back, it is that way of community because you know I'm not, I've taken a step back, now I'm not the chair anymore, but I see it from afar and I see the impact that it's still making on people's lives. We have some really cool little initiatives where we have what's called a water cooler and you put your name in, basically in a kind of virtual hat and every month you get paired with somebody different. So it's something like 150 conversations happening every month between two people who don't know each other, who have been brought together through the power of the network, and the idea of that is to help women in the group broaden their network.
Speaker 2:And I'm such a believer in in that, in networking and networking is a really scary word and people are kind of frightened of doing. But actually that is networking and it's helping people to really understand what's out there, understand the opportunities. And you know, I've had I've had some amazing network uh sorry, water cooler conversations with people. I've had ones that are about work. I've had ones that are about work. I've had ones that are about all sorts of things. I've had people, we've cried on them, we've laughed on them, but it really helps you to build that sense of you're not alone if you're facing a challenge. Other people have faced that too. Other people are willing to help you, be your cheerleader, help you get where you want to be. So I think I think those two things are probably my proudest moments over the last few years, definitely.
Speaker 1:Amazing, and thinking now more about some of the challenges. What's perhaps the biggest issue you had to overcome, or is it not quite goes away.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think getting out of my own way to get this role actually is probably the biggest, because I've spent a long time being in my own way and thinking I can't do something or I don't have the experience. And you know, I think and I wouldn't have done it if there hadn't been other people there cheering on Honestly, I really wouldn't have done. But I think that's the biggest challenge is just is just going no, you, you are good enough, you can do this. Um, and you know, the reward of doing that, being brave, has been immense. So I think that is probably the.
Speaker 1:The biggest challenge is is making that move into into the unknown and having the having the faith and the confidence to do it yeah, I certainly support that and, as you know, we always like to ask our guests to reflect and help those coming up through the industry today. So you can go back to being 25 again. What advice would you give to younger well?
Speaker 2:I'd love to be able to do that really in real life. It would be amazing, um, I think, well, going on from that theme of getting out of your own way, honestly, often you're the only person that's holding yourself back, and I reflect back and I can see that as well in in, um, and you know. So, I think, absolutely be, be bold, be fit, be fearless as far as you can. Uh, you know, and I think the other thing is surround yourself with people who will be your cheerleaders. Find yourself a mentor. Having a mentor has unlocked so much for me.
Speaker 2:Um, probably over the last three or four years, I've had an amazing mentor who is very challenging, doesn't let me get away with things, asks me tough questions, um, and so I think, if you can find someone to play that role and you'll be surprised that lots of people will be willing to do that, you know, because they will get a lot out of it as well. So, absolutely have faith in yourself. Um, you know, find yourself a mentor, but I also think um networking as well. So, um, I've become a massive LinkedIn fan over the last couple of years and I've met people on LinkedIn and I've become friends with them, and then I've met them in real life two years later, have you, and it's been amazing. So I think you know creating those opportunities for yourself is really important because you know you might have a couple of people helping you out, but actually you're the one that's responsible for making your success or getting those opportunities for yourself.
Speaker 1:Tell us about the colouring books.
Speaker 2:Ah yes, it was my little lockdown. Everyone had a lockdown project, didn't they? This is mine and I've always enjoyed colouring in as a sort of relaxation thing, and I just thought I was was walking as you do in all these lockdown walks, and I was looking at all the lovely buildings that we have in our local area. I thought, oh, I could draw those and then people could colour them in.
Speaker 2:So that's what it is. It's a local landmarks book, so it's quite niche, so people who live in this area, um, but it's gone down really really well and I am hoping to do lots more of them. Um, and I mean, I've learned lots from that process as well and I've had to step outside of my comfort zone. I've never been in a sales job before. So walking into a bookshop and saying, do you like stock my coloring book took a lot of um effort from me and I've got.
Speaker 2:I've got about three or four local stockists now, which is which is brilliant, and they've been so supportive. But that was. That was a big challenge, um, but you know, honestly, the dream is to have loads more cover, loads more areas and get some kind of national stockist as well. But that's going to require a little bit more bravery on my part as well. Is get you know how do I find that outlet and, um, how do I yeah, any. Any of the podcast listeners know any uh contacts in there in publishing chains?
Speaker 1:then please, please give me a shout and tell us about the colliston challenge oh, so that's a week tomorrow.
Speaker 2:Um, and it is a uh 10k hike up and down the old man of Coniston in in the lake district a 18 kilometer mountain bike ride through Growsdale Forest and then a three kilometer kayak across Coniston water. Um, I did it last year and I did it last year the week after I was recovering we'd recovered from Covid and it was honestly the hardest thing I've ever done. I've done a half marathon and that paled into insignificance in comparison. So, um, I've signed up again for some mad reason. Um, in seriousness, it's in support of Alder Hay, which is an amazing um children's charity in Liverpool.
Speaker 2:Um, and the gym that I belong to. It's a small local gym, um, and the, the owners of the gym. Their son has spent a lot of his his short uh life so far in alder hay and they've been amazing, not just for oscar but also for for the family as well supportive. So we're all doing it to raise as much money as we can for that amazing place, and one of our team dropped out last week, so I've now wrote my husband into doing it with me as well.
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness mate.
Speaker 2:It'll be lovely to do it together and to kind of cross the line together as well. So as long as we don't have any arguments in the kayak, I think we'll be fine.
Speaker 1:Yes, row together, I think.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely. It's all about communication, I've been told.
Speaker 1:Wish you the most amazing luck with that and, obviously, a fantastic report which I think everyone would support. Lucy, it's been fascinating having you with us today. You've been a wonderful guest. Thank you. I hope our listeners found this as insightful as I have. You can find out lots more about Customer Experience Foundation at cxfoorg and we hope you can join us next time on CX Diaries.